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 MCMMO problem and proposed solution

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What do you think should become of MCMMO?
Don't touch my MCMMO!
28%
 28% [ 5 ]
Remove MCMMO completely
11%
 11% [ 2 ]
Put level cap on MCMMO between 300-400
28%
 28% [ 5 ]
Put level cap on MCMMO above or below 300-400
22%
 22% [ 4 ]
Other Solution
11%
 11% [ 2 ]
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~Tylo

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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:51 am

Just cap everythin at 300 i don think its that op at that point in the level..

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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:52 am

Axes are op at that level :I


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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:53 am

I like McMMO though. It's different. I like using items that I would never think about pvping with
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:19 pm

jjruh wrote:
I had previously planned on spacing these posts out over the course of a week, as listening me rant for a page or more is probably not fun, however since the pvp server just came back up, and there is no one online, I thought I would bring up my next topic, MCMMO.

As we all know, MCMMO is that wonderful plug-in that we all know and love that gives us such nice things as giga drill, superbreaker, bezerker, tools and armor from fishing, diamonds from dirt and so on. However, I along with others from the server fell like MCMMO is giving too much of an advantage to a top tier of players. As everyone should know, at level 350 excavation MCMMO lets players get diamonds from just digging dirt or sand, and while this is nice and all, it just makes the gap that much larger between the established and the new factions. If a faction can supply themselves with easily acquired, seemingly endless diamond armor, then they can be attacked and outnumbered and win the battle because they have a renewable source of armor and weapons that the enemy doesn't. One might say, "well that is war" but is getting diamonds from dirt really fair to players who can’t? players who don’t have time or simply refuse to grind in a area for hours on end? I understand this is a weak argument, but what about axes.

as of writing this post bk201soren has 1088 axe levels, and gravkeeperscat has 818 at these high levels things start to get... sketchy. At his level Bk201 can do 41 damage to armor, excluding the over 1 in 4 chance he has to do double damage. It has been reported that a level of 800 can destroy diamond armor in 3 hits, however according to the minecraft wiki, with Bk's current level (assuming there are no double damage or crit hit) he can destroy diamond armor in a mere 9 hits. A full set of armor destroyed completely in 9 hits which is completely absurd.

Swords and bows are bad as well, just not destroy a brand new set of armor in 9 hits bad. But the fact remains that people are getting to levels by grinding that would take the "casual" player years to get should they play normally. I understand the argument of "well I earned this by slaying endermen for 50 hours last week alone" however it is just unreasonable to make everyone live up to that standard if they want to compete. While I respect that people who have played longer, or who have earned it should get more bonuses than the beginner or the person who doesn’t care, this is just out of hand. Don't get my intentions wrong, I do not wish to have MCMMO removed completely, as I believe that players should be able to attain some advantage. In place of this, I suggest that there should be a level cap on MCMMO. A hard ceiling that would take a while to get to, and give a obvious advantage for players at the cap, but not so much as so they can go 1 on 3 and make it out without a scratch. Said hard cap would be around 300-400 MCMMO levels across the board. Except possibly fishing, woodcutting, herbalism, and acrobatics since those do not give a competitive advantage to players who have large numbers in these fields.

As it stands now MCMMO is giving too much of an unfair advantage to players in the top tier, and in my opinion this needs to be brought under control. Your thoughts as to the solution would be appreciated.

The problem is, most people think mcmmo is overpowered cause misinformation. Kao doesn't really know what he's talking when he said "3 hits" to destroy diamond armour. He seems to forgot he combat logged just before those "3 hits", allowing me to beat down him for at least 7 to 10 hits before hand. Not to mention I doubt his armour was at full durability.

Even at BK's axe skill, you can't destroy one piece of their diamond armour in less than 10 hits, and that's only the helmet, which breaks the fastest. So where does this misinformation spread from? Assuming your opponent has full armour, you'll always kill him before it breaks, unless it's a protection set or they line hop on safe zone. Thing is, Swords kill insanely faster, and thats without mcmmo skill. Technically speaking, the only thing Axes can really be used against is a protection set and people too cowardice to risk fighting you. And as we already know, protection sets are probably the most OP thing in vanilla minecraft. If anything, mcmmo really has added some much needed balance to the game.

Criticals with axes don't even work the same on players as they do on mobs. You get 1.5x damage, not 2x. And considering that maxes out 37.5% chance, this means you have about a one in three chance of dealing 15 damage with axes. With a Sharpness IV diamond sword you deal as much on average, but have the potential to deal so much more. Unlike axes, you get this damage indefinitely, not every one in three hits. Axes are meant to scare the enemy. Swords are meant to kill before they can fight back.


And about Unarmed. The disarm chance maxes out at 25%. Again, misinformation spreads like wildfire for some reason. Even that 25% chance can be reduced, due to your opponent's unarmed skill. And disarming is pretty much useless since your opponent picks it immediately unless they are nowhere near it. The only way you can successfully disarm anyone in the game is if your opponent is retreating, or you hit them while running for extreme knockback. Making it a pretty useless skill to have for unarmed.


This topic really shouldn't be about Mcmmo. The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions. With that, you are god. You can swim in lava for over a minute. You can kill your opponent in two hits. And both basically require time, just like mcmmo.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:29 pm

The disarming really isn't "misinformation". It says that on the plugin wiki. Also, every fight will most likely be different, for people have different playing styles. You can't think of it a one aspect, you have to think of it as several.

As stupid as it may sound, competitive pokemon is like this. So many different tactics and strategies, you have to expect everything
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:30 pm

[quote="Enemycommander"]
jjruh wrote:


This topic really shouldn't be about Mcmmo. The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions. With that, you are god. You can swim in lava for over a minute. You can kill your opponent in two hits. And both basically require time, just like mcmmo.

It's about McMMO, thread says it all. If you want to have a debate about vanilla items, make a new thread about it
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:35 pm

Enemycommander wrote:
The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions
The thing is though, MCMMO is a plugin added to the server, while protections and potions are in the default game itself. And potions arn't really OP as everyone can get them relatively quickly. As for protections they can be rather overpowered if you are fighting somone without protections, but they are rather simple to get. As I said in my post, I am in favor of a advantage to players who work for it, but MCMMO is giving players too much of an advantage, and the protections are not as bad, and don't take as long as getting 1000 axes in MCMMO. Mabey the wiki is wong, but 8 to 10 isnt that much of a difference. And even still, how long does it take to destroy a full set of armor with a standard axe? A lot more than 10 hits.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:38 pm

Even if the axe takes a bit to break armor, it's really annoying
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:51 pm

[quote="GojoMaximus"]
Enemycommander wrote:
jjruh wrote:


This topic really shouldn't be about Mcmmo. The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions. With that, you are god. You can swim in lava for over a minute. You can kill your opponent in two hits. And both basically require time, just like mcmmo.

It's about McMMO, thread says it all. If you want to have a debate about vanilla items, make a new thread about it

I can't tell if serious...


jjruh wrote:
Enemycommander wrote:
The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions
The thing is though, MCMMO is a plugin added to the server, while protections and potions are in the default game itself. And potions arn't really OP as everyone can get them relatively quickly. As for protections they can be rather overpowered if you are fighting somone without protections, but they are rather simple to get. As I said in my post, I am in favor of a advantage to players who work for it, but MCMMO is giving players too much of an advantage, and the protections are not as bad, and don't take as long as getting 1000 axes in MCMMO. Mabey the wiki is wong, but 8 to 10 isnt that much of a difference. And even still, how long does it take to destroy a full set of armor with a standard axe? A lot more than 10 hits.

Just because they're in the game by default does not excuse their OP'ness. And one set usually takes at least an hour if not more to grind. Assuming you're lucky enough to not get a worthless enchantment ten times in a row. To grind for mcmmo skill for an hour, you'd earn about 100 at the higher levels, and 200 at early levels. And this is assuming you're slow with grinding methods. If you took away mcmmo, essentially Protection would dominate pvp, and winners would be determined solely by how many sets they possess. Poison is nullified, splash is reduced by 95%. It's ridiculous. Someone can hit you over 20 times and you can hit them back once exchanging equal damage. Your hp literally outlasts your armour. Meaning anyone

GojoMaximus wrote:
Archery is fine in my opinion. There really isn't a way to farm with it and it all comes down to the enchants that said product has. Same goes for taming and repairing. These stats are fine


Archery is possibly one of the most OP skills in all of mcmmo. As you've said, we've been graced with no easy to farm it, so no one has really noticed it's potential. Bows already do 9 damage, and with enchantments you can worm this up to a 14-24, making 19 the average. The skill can boost that average 19 to 57 damage per a hit. 78 damage at max, and that's assuming the skill doesn't boost strengthen the effects of potions. But if it works anything like axes or any other attack skill, then it will, meaning the max damage from one hit will be 90. OP much? You'd have no problem killing anyone in diamond armour in two hits. Hell, could be possibly to one hit KO with the skill. Even protection set bearers would die in 4 or less. If I wanted to grind my archery, I wouldn't have much problem doing so, it's just in the arena long ranged skills are pretty useless at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:54 pm

I was being serious btw
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:59 pm

[quote="GojoMaximus"]
Enemycommander wrote:
jjruh wrote:


This topic really shouldn't be about Mcmmo. The really OP elements in minecraft are from protection sets and potions. With that, you are god. You can swim in lava for over a minute. You can kill your opponent in two hits. And both basically require time, just like mcmmo.

It's about McMMO, thread says it all. If you want to have a debate about vanilla items, make a new thread about it

You are going a bit off topic here, all he is basically saying is that mcmmo actually helps put up defenses against some other debatably over powered elements in the game. Although I agree some skills do need a cap. Like capping axes at 750 to stop armour damage from becoming too high. At that level you can break all of their armour in 20 hits which isn't over powered in the slightest. Who could possibly survive 20 hits in a normal battle? Anymore of a reduction and the skill starts to become useless altogether though and should just be removed.

Now they sound over-powered in theory, but the problem is most people don't know how these skills actually handle in game. That's where the confusion of them being over-powered mostly arises from. But basically all you did was completely ignored Enemy's point and try to change the topic of why the skills are not over-powered. I'd appreciate if you stayed on topic before the thread gets locked because of it. This is about mcmmo balance and as such the balance of other game elements as they are effected by it too. It's like bringing up one item being overpriced within the economy, it doesn't hurt to bring up other items to use a waypoint to compare to the first.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:07 pm

bk201soren wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stayed on topic before the thread gets locked because of it.
That is a bit uncalled for, He has just as much right to debate the topic as you do. As to what he said, he isnt wrong enemy commander is saying that it is no more OP than the default things in the game which is off topic to a degree. HOWEVER, It is an interesting prospect and does require some thought. From what enemycommander has stated it almost seems like he wants them gone but doesnt at the same time. Personally I agree with him that enchants are a bit overpowered, however it takes much longer to get to a devastating level in mcmmo than it does to get a good enchant in the vanilla game, plus the majority of people have access to a spawner making that much easier. But again, I dont want to remove completly the advantage a player has for playing longer or better, I just want to lower that advantage to a more fair level. Somthing that MCMMO blows way more out of preportion than does the current enchant system.

EDIT: Why would this topic be locked? we arn't having a hate war against eachother, we are trying to have a debate as to the full extent of the problem so we can properly gauge the solution. This isn't cause for a topic lock in the slightest.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:14 pm

jjruh wrote:
bk201soren wrote:
I'd appreciate if you stayed on topic before the thread gets locked because of it.
That is a bit uncalled for, He has just as much right to debate the topic as you do. As to what he said, he isnt wrong enemy commander is saying that it is no more OP than the default things in the game which is off topic to a degree. HOWEVER, It is an interesting prospect and does require some thought. From what enemycommander has stated it almost seems like he wants them gone but doesnt at the same time. Personally I agree with him that enchants are a bit overpowered, however it takes much longer to get to a devastating level in mcmmo than it does to get a good enchant in the vanilla game, plus the majority of people have access to a spawner making that much easier. But again, I dont want to remove completly the advantage a player has for playing longer or better, I just want to lower that advantage to a more fair level. Somthing that MCMMO blows way more out of preportion than does the current enchant system.
As I have said, the default elements in the game that are debatably overpowered are effected by this subject, as such they do belong within this topic. Telling someone to make a new topic about how those elements are effected by these elements is off topic, not the other way around. He wasn't debating anything specifically to do on this topic by saying that.

And I can agree though there are some over powering elements about mcmmo that could be removed, but we don't want to remove too much or we could end up making the pvp components useless in it. Like I said, level 750 would be a good cap. 2000 axes would be op for example, 5 hits killing armour. 4000 axes makes for 3 hits and could be unstoppable really.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:19 pm

20 hits to break armor is still crazy...I dont want to get new diamond armor every 2-3 fights that I get into.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:37 am

The bane to the axes armour damage is the repair skill really. One diamond can repair 5's worth at the max level. So you could almost repair all your armour with just the use of 4-6 diamonds.

Really mcmmo is just a case of complicated rock paper scissors. Every skill tends to have a skill that does well in countering it.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:46 am

Bk201 = MCMMO specialist
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:50 am

DON"T YOU DAR TAKE AWAY MCMMO IN SRV.

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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:44 am

Ive been in a couple of fights where myself and some other were laying 20 or so hits on eachover. It was a long match, and we were using axes. Luckily he wasn't as high as me, but it still took a lot out of my armor. I'm not diamond rich or anything, so it's hard to repair my armor >.<


Again, you have to think of almost every outcome in a situation, not just one. You're basically lying to yourself if you think otherwise
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:03 am

I mean bk is right things counter others i mean there isnt much wrong with it after really reading all its evidence

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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:23 am

I'm not saying he's wrong. Just making a point
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:03 am

GojoMaximus wrote:
Ive been in a couple of fights where myself and some other were laying 20 or so hits on eachover. It was a long match, and we were using axes. Luckily he wasn't as high as me, but it still took a lot out of my armor. I'm not diamond rich or anything, so it's hard to repair my armor >.<


Again, you have to think of almost every outcome in a situation, not just one. You're basically lying to yourself if you think otherwise

Well, I've previously said that most battles don't usually last 20 hits. Why? Because swords would have no problem killing in 5 hits or less if we are talking about just normal diamond armour. Even the axe would kill in less than 8 hits easily. A non-decisive battle on the scale you are talking about would probably rely on your hp fully regenerating twice over. It isn't impossible, but I always looked as it as highly unlikely to stay in battle that long especially since it is so easy to get multiple hits on your opponent at once.

I mean even I can kill someone in normal diamond armour in just 3 seconds flat easily. SheepOwner killed me almost instantly with his axes as well when I was wearing a plain diamond set. And axes aren't well known for their damage per second. I didn't even have a chance to use a single potion before I was just dead. With the battle lasting as long as you have described though one of the parties would have had to retreat to the safezone or both were taking a time out? And returning to that safezone is basically line hopping. And as I've said, armour degradation is only really suitable for line hoppers and protection sets. If you are not dealing with either of those the battle is likely to end before the axes are even close to destroying a single piece, and that's even if you have my level of axes, which is definably higher than it should be.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:12 am

BK201soren I might have misjudged you to begin with. I assumed that since you were at the top, you would resist the change the hardest. As the ones who would benifit least from the new system that they used to benifit from, are the ones who fight hardest against it. But it would turn out that you are more knowledgable on the subject than I, and have thought through what needs to happen in order for the system to be ballanced and fair. As I still think your proposed cap is a bit high, I can be convinced that 300 is to low. But overall you make good points.

On a side note, can we give a little attention to the "Victory Conditions: More ways than one to "win" at PvP" because in my eyes I would like to see the victory conditions take off more than I would a level cap on MCMMO.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:45 am

You'd be surprised about what I know about mining skill and how to get even more diamonds using it. I get 1-4 more diamonds out of a single ore than your average player would. Two words, silk touch, then fortune afterwards.
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:53 am

bk201soren wrote:
You'd be surprised about what I know about mining skill and how to get even more diamonds using it. I get 1-4 more diamonds out of a single ore than your average player would. Two words, silk touch, then fortune afterwards.
Hmm, wouldnt it be better to just use fortune in the first place?
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PostSubject: Re: MCMMO problem and proposed solution   Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:02 am

jjruh wrote:
bk201soren wrote:
You'd be surprised about what I know about mining skill and how to get even more diamonds using it. I get 1-4 more diamonds out of a single ore than your average player would. Two words, silk touch, then fortune afterwards.
Hmm, wouldnt it be better to just use fortune in the first place?

Not quite. Super breakering with a silk touch pickaxe first will get you 2-3 diamond ores hopefully right? So 1-2 extra ores. If you place them down again and mine them with the fortune afterwards you then have 1-2 extra chances of fortune working it's magic. Where as fortune normally would only have one ore to be used on. And I don't need to tell you that means a fair bit of diamond with fortune III picks especially.
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